I discovered
Terrence McCauley and his writing when we shared a panel at Bouchercon Albany
on noir vs. hard-boiled fiction. We hit it off right away and I quickly
discovered he’s a great foil for discussing a wide range of literary topics, as
he someone who actually thinks about the things his books are about instead of settling
for a good story well told. (Not that I’m implying a good story well told isn’t
important. It’s the most important
thing, but it’s also just the entry point. Readers should expect/demand that
just to buy the book.)
Terrence is the author
of the University series of novels featuring James Hicks. Of his new book, A Conspiracy of Ravens, no less than
Reed Farrell Coleman says, "In our new reality, Terrence McCauley’s A Conspiracy of Ravens is not far from
the realm of possibility. He hits all the right notes while creating a
simultaneously entertaining and frightening scenario. Read it." (A
Conspiracy of Ravens is the
third book in the University series, to be released by Polis Books September
19.) He also writes a series of books set in Prohibition-era New York that
includes Prohibition,
Slow
Burn, and the upcoming The
Fairfax Incident.
Terrence started an
enthusiastic discussion in Facebook a few weeks ago about heroes and villains,
right about the time I got word I’ll be on a panel covering heroes and anti-heroes
at Bouchercon in Toronto. One thing led to another and here we are, chatting
about exactly those subjects.
One Bite at a Time: In your mind, what’s the difference
between a hero and an anti-hero?
This man is NOT an asshole. |
Terrence McCauley: To me, the anti-hero is the character that
does what he or she is going to do anyway to serve their own purposes. They
just happen to be for good. A hero, often in my opinion misdiagnosed as the
protagonist, seeks to do the right thing for the cause which he or she serves.
OBAAT: You write the much-acclaimed University series of thrillers. Where
does your main character, James Hicks, fall in this spectrum?
TM: In Hicks, I sought to create the anti-Bond. Hicks and the University
do what they feel they need to do to protect the interests of the West.
Sometimes that puts them in direct conflict with their own government who isn't
sure of what the University is or what it's trying to accomplish. He spends a
good amount of time in Sympathy for the
Devil and A Murder of Crows
combating his own government as much as the terrorists seeking to attack the
country. This is why I would call Hicks an anti-hero.
OBAAT: We had an interesting conversation on Facebook a few weeks ago about
Vic Mackey from The Shield. Vic trod
a very thin line between anti-hero
and villain for the show’s entire run. You know what he’s willing to do when he
shoots a cop in the pilot, yet by the time Forrest Whitaker tries to take him
down you can’t help but root for Vic. How does he managed to do this, and what
is it about him that makes him a villain in the end?
TM: Secretly, everyone likes a bad guy. Who would you rather hang out with
in Deadwood? Dudley Do Right or Al Swearengen? Vic Mackey is compelling because
he does a lot of good while he's doing so much bad. He's a conflicted character
and therefore believable. We can relate to him in a way we can't really relate
to a hero like Superman. We're not perfect, hence the reason why so many people
like Batman. To borrow from another medium, people related to Oprah because she
faced a lot of the same struggles her viewers had faced. Poverty, weight
problems, professional problems and, finally, success. Megyn Kelly has said she
wants to be the next Oprah. A thin, blonde white woman who looks like a model?
I don't think that'll go over so well because her audience can’t relate to her.
In many ways, she is what many of her audience will never be. In Vic Mackey, we
could relate because he was as flawed as the rest of us. We knew he was bad,
but he was relatable.
OBAAT: You have a way with anti-heroes. Both your Prohibition Era novels, Prohibition and Slow Burn, are filled with characters who embody many admirable
traits but are by no means heroes. Charlie Doherty from Slow Burn is a particular favorite. Truly a corrupt cop, he still
does the job so it comes out right. Terry Quinn in Prohibition is a mob guy through and through, but his loyalty to Archie
Doyle is moving, and reminds me in some ways of Ned Beaumont in The Glass Key. You mentioned a minute at
what attracts you to such characters. What makes you so good at writing them?
TM: I always try to create believable characters, whether they're
anti-heroes or villains or heroes. I make them believable by not allowing
myself to write cookie-cutter characters. In my University series, Roger Cobb
does horrible things to people, yet my readers tend to like him because they
can relate to him. Same thing with Doherty and Quinn. They're products of their
respective times and have their own motivations for doing what they do. Quinn
has no problem murdering someone, but he's loyal to Archie. Doherty went into
the Van Dorn case looking for blackmail money, but he gets won over by the
family and the case. James Hicks is cold-blooded and distant, but he acts in
what he feels are the best interests of his country and our way of life.
They're complicated characters who aren't perfect and aren't flawed in the ways
readers have come to expect in literature. My characters are all perfectly
flawed and I wouldn't want them to be any other way.
OBAAT: I’ll tell you why I’m asking this in a minute, but can a hero become
an anti-hero?
TM: Spoiler alert here, but Vic Mackey went from being hero to anti-hero
to villain. The reason why it worked was because of consistent, strong writing.
The seeds for his evil turn were planted from the very first episodes of the
series and came to bloom in the final two episodes of the show. He was always
the villain. We just never saw it. That's why I consider the ending to be the
best ending of a series I've ever seen. It fit perfectly. It took a stand. It
was believable.
Circumstances in a
story can change so that a hero can become an anti-hero, but it has to be done
well and it has to be done over time lest the writer be accused of jumping the
shark. It can't be sudden and it can't be contrived. But if it's planned for over
time, then I think it can be achieved. To use the comparison with another TV
show, I think you're starting to see that in Homeland.
OBAAT: The reason I asked—and the reason I’m so glad to hear your answer—is
that’s what happened to my PI character, Nick Forte. He starts out as a
Chandlerian hero, doing the right things and trying to do them in the right
way. Each book wore him down as things didn’t work out the way he wanted them
to until now he’s reached the point where if he decides someone has to go, they
go. Period. The thing about Forte that’s completely different from Vic Mackey
is that I didn’t realize what I’d done until I was four books in and took a few
years off to work on another series. Have you ever had a character evolve on
you like that, even within the course of a book?
TM: Sure. Doherty evolves big time in Slow
Burn and even more so in the upcoming The
Fairfax Incident. James Hicks, over the course of three books, evolves into
a character the reader can understand. With Hicks, that was by design. In Sympathy, I spend a lot of time
introducing the reader to the world and technology I've created. I show who the
protagonists and antagonists are and kept the backstory and motivations to a
minimum. In Crows, the reader learns
more about the University and sees a more human side of Hicks. I folded it into
the plot of the book, rather than blatantly show you who he is and where he's
coming from. In Ravens, readers will
see a much more personal side of Hicks than they've ever seen before. My beta
readers have all given me wonderful feedback on Ravens because they feel the evolution is believable and fits with
the story. My goal is to continue this evolution in future novels and I hope to
have the opportunity to keep the University Series going both during the
current day and in the University's past with Charlie Doherty.
OBAAT: I know you’re a fan of the TV show Justified.
Where did Raylan Givens fall on your personal hero/anti-hero scale?
TM: I love Raylan, but I'd classify him as a hero. Sure, he broke the
rules, but not enough to make him a criminal. He was good with a gun, maybe too
good, but all of his shootings were, indeed, Justified. Great character. Great
performance and skillful writing made the show one of my favorites. But Vic
Mackey is in a class by himself.